Subheading: Interesting Court Examination of ‘Pastor’ Russell, His Religious Propaganda As Well As His Business Enterprises.
From Spotlight on Russellism, Volume 1, number 1, pages 2 and 7. Punctuation and capitalization as per the Sidersky transcript.
Q = Attorney Staunton
A = Charles Taze Russell
March 17th, 1913.
(continuation of Russell vs. Ross)
Mr. Washington:-
The evidence for the Crown is closed, Your Worship.
Mr. Staunton:-
I just want to submit that they have made no case. Of course I will call the prosecutor, Mr. Russell.
Charles T. Russell.
Sworn.
Direct examination by Mr. Staunton.
Q. Now your name is Charles T. Russell?
A. It is.
Q. You are prosecutor in this case?
A. I didn’t understand so.
Q. Well, are you prosecutor?
A. I am with the Crown.
Q Are you private prosecutor? Let’s not start –
A. I didn’t know that I was, sir.
Q. You didn’t lay this information or cause it to be laid?
A. I understand that the Crown –
Q. Will you answer my question. Did you lay an information or cause it to be laid?
A. I will have to ask my Counsel how it is.
Mr. Washington:-
The information is there, Mr. Russell, you can look at it and see if it is yours.
Information produced:
Witness:-
I remember, sir, yes, I made this, yes, sir.
Q. Why did you hesitate to answer that?
A. Because I thought it was the Crown that was prosecutor in this case, and I was a witness.
Q. I asked you if you laid the information – You are an intelligent man – did you swear to it?
A. Yes, to this paper.
Q. Therefore you are the private prosecutor?
A. Whatever you say.
Q. Now were you at one time in the shirt business in Allegheny, Pennsylvania?
A. I was in the Gent’s furnishing business.
Q. Then you were selling shirts in Allegheny, Pennsylvania at one time?
A. I had stores in Allegheny. I don’t know that I sold many shirts myself.
Q. Do you understand the question, Mr. Russell?
A. I have answered it.
Q. Did you sell shirts in Allegheny!
A. I can’t say that I sold shirts. I have plenty –
Q. You swear you can’t tell me whether you sold any shirts or not?
A. I don’t know whether I ever sold a shirt ever in my life
Q. Had you any stores there?
A. Yes
Q. Did you keep shirts for sale?
A. Shirts for sale.
Q. You don’t know whether you sold any or not?
A. I couldn’t say whether I did.
Q. How many years did you keep the business?
A. Well, I had, I presume ten years.
Q. How many stores did you have?
A. I had different stores at different times.
Q. How many did you have at one time?
A. Five, I think at one time.
Q. Did you sell them all out?
A. I sold them all out.
Q. Did you inherit your business from your father?
A. No.
Q. Did you build up the business for yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Your Father wasn’t in that business?
A. My Father was partner in one of those stores.
Q. Your father was partner in the business?
A. One of the businesses.
Q. Did you lecture on religious subjects at the time you were in the Gent’s Furnishing business?
A. I did.
Q. When did you quit the Gent’s Furnishing business?
A. I have no matter to refresh my memory.
Q. About what year?
A. Rough guess there.
Q. Make it as rough as you like, but give it to me.
A. About 1885.
Q. Wasn’t before ‘85?
A. I couldn’t say.
Q. Did you establish the Watch Tower immediately after you quit that business?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many years after?
A. No, sir, I established the Watch Tower just before I quit the business.
Q. Now did anybody in those days ever call you the “Crank preacher”?
A. They may have done so. I never heard.
Q. You don’t know that you ever heard that, did you ever see it in print?
A. I don’t remember that I ever did.
Q. Did you ever hear that in those days you were called “The crank preacher”?
A. I don’t remember it.
Q. You swear you don’t remember it?
A. Certainly swearing all the time.
Q. You may have been for aught you know?
A. Why, of course, Mr. Ross says he knows.
Q. Never mind Mr. Ross. I’m asking you.
A. Well, I have answered it. I wouldn’t change it any if you ask me this over again.
Q. Did you ever give out that you were “Some Great One?”
A. No Sir.
Q. Never did it?
A. No Sir.
Q. You were never the servant, never prophesied no time that you were the servant mentioned in the 24th St. Matthew?
A. I never did, but some of my friends suggested that they believed that the Scripture in Matthew 24-26 was applicable to myself. I have never said it was, and I have never said it was not. I may have merely said I did not know whether it was or not.
Q. Did you ever attend a High School of learning, or, perhaps, you might tell me what schools of learning you did attend?
A. I attended various schools, none were termed High Schools of learning.
Q. What schools did you attend?
A. Well as far as theology is concerned –
Q. I am not asking you about theology.
A. I had a great deal of education from private tutors.
Q. What schools did you attend?
A. Not very many.
Q. What school?
A. Ordinary public school.
Q. At what age did you leave school?
A. That is more than I know.
Q. Were you ten, fifteen, or twenty years old?
A. If you know, you know more than I do.
Q. You don’t know how long you were at school?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever at school?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you clear on that?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me how many years you attended school?
A. No.
Q. Did you attend two years?
A. I suppose so.
Q. You don’t know?
A. Yes, I’m sure more than that.
Q. Did you attend three years?
A. I suppose –
Q. You don’t know, tho’?
A. I suppose so.
Q. Well, but you don’t know.
A. I can’t say where those were.
Q. You attend three years in total time at school?
A. Yes more than three years.
Q. Did you attend four years?
A. I suppose five or six or seven years.
Q. I asked you how many years you attended school?
A. Probably seven years.
Q. Now, where did you attend school?
A. In Allegheny, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia.
Q. Now, do you know, or are you learned in Latin?
A. Not as much as I would like to be.
Q. Can you read anything in Latin?
A. I can read a few sentences, I can’t read Latin –
Q. You did not profess to read anything in Latin outside?
A. No.
Q. You don’t profess then to be schooled in the Latin language?
A. No sir.
Q. Or in Greek?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know the Greek alphabet?
A. Oh yes.
Q. Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?
A. Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them.
Q. Could you tell me the names of those on top of the page, page 447 that I have got here?
A. Well, I don’t know that I would be able to.
Q. You can’t tell what those letters are, look at them, and see if you know?
A. My way - ?
Q. Are you familiar with the Greek language?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever take a course in theology?
A. Taking courses in theology all the time.
Q. Did you ever take a course in theology at a University, or at a school of any kind?
A. No – glad I didn’t.
Q. Did you ever take one in philosophy?
A. No.
(To be continued)
Issues 2-5 are not extant. However, issue 6 is, and provides more of the transcript.
PART TWO Heading: ‘Pastor’ Russell Under Direct Court Examination
Subheading: Interesting Court Examination of ‘Pastor’ Russell, His Religious Propaganda As Well As His Business Enterprises.
From Spotlight on Russellism, Volume 1, number 6, pages 2 and 7. Punctuation and capitalization as per the Sidersky transcript.
Q = Attorney Staunton
A = Charles Taze Russell
(continuation)
Q. Same man?
A. Yes.
Q Is that an additional sum of money?
A I don’t know but it is.
Q Did you get the whole of this money from him at one time?
A. No Sir, he sent it at different times.
Q. Did he strip his family of all their possessions to do that?
A. No, he came to me and said, “I’ve just received a legacy from an Uncle in Ireland” – I think it was his Uncle – “of Twenty Thousand Dollars, and I want to give that all to this work.” I said, “Brother Hay, my advice to you is before you tender it, because if you do tender it, as President of the Society, my advice to you in advance is not to do it. Don’t give more than half, keep one half for some other reason.” He said he would take my advice and gave Ten Thousand Dollars, and he never finished giving the Ten. Since that he developed, what they claim, was tumor on the brain.
Q. Is he in the lunatic asylum now?
A. Yes.
Q. Who supports him?
A. Well, I think we became.
Q. Who pays the money?
A. The Society.
Q. Does the Society pay it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I am told that it is his Uncle in the old country that does that.
A. Not as I know, we done it right along.
Q. How much have you been paying?
A. I don’t know – several years.
Q. You are paying it actually from time to time?
A. I would not know, the Treasurer would know that. I know we did pay it – never declined to pay it, I suppose being paid for.
Q. What is the International Bible Students Association?
A. The International Bible Students Association is an Association which got its charter in Great Britain. It is international in its scope and work.
Q. Who are members of the Association?
A. Anybody who desires to be a member,
Q. Well, how many are there?
A. Well, we don’t come down to the matter in the way you have – judge from membership.
Q. How many are there active members of the Association?
A. Well, I can hardly say.
Q. Are there two?
A. I suppose there are one hundred thousand anyway.
Q. That are living, where do they live, in America?
A. All over the earth.
Q. Are they, do they call them persons, who are members of this Society, who are your followers?
A. No Sir, we told them not to follow me but the Lord.
Q. Are they all your disciples then, if you call?
A. I hope they are disciples of Christ.
Q. Then people contribute to your work?
A. Most of them never contribute a cent.
Q. What do you call them, again?
A. Bible Students.
Q. International – what?
A. Bible Students Association.
Q. They are made of all creeds of society?
A. All creeds of society.
Q. Men who are not students in it?
A. Oh yes, all students.
Q. They study the Bible, that is what you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Men who are not educated?
A. Some educated, and some who are not educated, some of them ministers, some of them doctors and some of them lawyers.
Q. Where did you get the charter from, the government of England?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know under what law it is?
A. No.
Q. Is it under the Companys Act in England, do you know that?
A. I am unable to say.
Q. There is a charter issue?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you spoke this morning of the family, what is the family you spoke about?
A. Well the family I spoke about was when Mrs. Russell was with me.
Q. No, no, but now, what does it consist of?
A. The family now then –
Q. Have you a family now?
A. Yes Sir, we call it a family.
Q. What is the family?
A. All those in the Brooklyn hall we call in a general way the family.
Q. Do they all live in the one house?
A. We have a house, I suppose, of about fifty rooms.
Q. What do you call it?
A. What do we call it – “Bethel,” house of God.
Q. And do you all live there?
A. They live there.
Q. Are they married and unmarried?
A. Married and unmarried.
Q. Men and women?
A. Yes.
Q. Numbering, about how many?
A. About one hundred.
Q. Now, how are the expenses of that institution paid of the “Bethel”?
A. The expenses are all paid by the People’s Pulpit Association.
Q. Now, what is the People’s Pulpit Association?
A. The People’s Pulpit Association.
Q. There are so many of these associations that I get mixed up.
A. Get mixed up?
Q. Yes.
Q. What is the People’s Pulpit Association?
A. It is an Association charted in the state of New York, and the International Bible Students Association is charted by the –
Q. No, no, no, describe the People’s Pulpit Association.
Q. It is an Association charted by the state of New York, what for?
A. Some religious – knowledge of God and the Scriptures to all –
Q. How many belong to that?
A. About forty.
Q. Forty people?
A. Forty ministers.
Q. Now these are preachers and give all their time, are these the preachers?
A. Those are the preachers.
Q. Do they pay the expenses of the “Bethel”?
A. The preachers do not.
Q. Who does?
A. The Association.
Q. Forty in the Association?
A. Backed by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.
Q. Where do they get the money?
A. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society provides the money.
Q. What is it now, the Peoples Pulpit Association now and has forty members in it?
A. Approximately.
Q. Do they all live in the “Bethel”?
A. That’s their home.
Q. What are the other sixty or seventy that live there?
A. Well, they are assistants in various ways, stenographers, helpers in the office.
Q. Wives and children?
A. Some of them have wives and children of those preachers.
Q. Are the preachers men and women?
A. No, sir, no women preachers.
Q. All men?
A. Yes.
Q. Now they get their money from the Watch Tower?
A. They get their money from the Peoples Pulpit Association.
Q. Yes because Peoples Pulpit Association get their money from the Watch Tower?
A. Yes.
Q. And the Watch Tower gets it from –
A. Where you choose to get it.
Q. From the public?
A. Yes.
Q. Now is there any other Association?
A. International Bible Students Association.
Q. That is part of the same order?
A. Yes.
Q. Do they get any money?
A. They get all from the Watch Tower. The Watch Tower is the parent organization.
Q. Could they get any money?
A. There are a hundred thousand people, sometimes, for instance. If the Bible Students in a certain place feel that they want to do some work and have not sufficient money to carry it on themselves, the Society will back them up and furnish part of the money.
Q. Now is there any other Society?
A. That’s three.
Q. We have got the Watch Tower, the Students and the Bible?
A. And the Peoples Pulpit, one in Pennsylvania, one in Great Britain, one in New York. The reason for these three – there are certain limitations. By the state law the Watch Tower cannot operate in New York State, the same in New Jersey. We need, therefore, to have these others as holding Companies to carry on the work.
Q. Well, isn’t there another called the London and Brooklyn Tabernacles?
A. Brooklyn Tabernacle.
Q. Is that an Association?
A. No.
Q. Or just a building?
A. Just a building.
Q. Now the jury rendered a verdict against you in the Brooklyn Eagle suit, didn’t they?
A. Yes.
Q. And you objected and commented on that in the Watch Tower, on the verdict?
A. Yes.
Q. In the February number of the Watch Tower?
A. You had better read it in the Watch Tower.
Q. I have not got it here, have you got it?
A. No.
Q. Will you care to put one in and produce it here?
A. Yes, I am not ashamed of anything that is done.
Q. But I will read this. Of course we will take it subject to correction. It will be corrected in evidence if it does not agree with what is in the Watch Tower.
A. What paper are you reading from?
Q. The Brooklyn Eagle.
Q. I am going to ask some questions, subject to correction. I will put in a copy. I think it is allright.
(Mr Staunton here reads article from the February number of the Watch Tower.)
Q. I understand from you that all you sued for was because they said you were mixed up in the sale of Miracle Wheat?
A. That’s what the cartoon was.
Q. What was the cartoon, what did it look like?
A. It was a caricature representing me as selling Miracle Wheat.
(To be continued)
But the next issue (Volume 7 number 7) has no more of the transcript. It reports on CTR’s death and may have been the last issue produced.
